remember that conversation i told you i had with my co-worker and he told me why he believed what he believed. well, here is a follow-up email that he sent to me, followed by my response. i am sure we will have more of these - but i know you realize that it doesn't take the place of real conversation, which i hope to have again some day.
I was discussing the Genesis story with someone online and recalled a few ideas from our conversation about how sin entered the world.
I'm not sure I expressed my point very well then, so here's a better and more succinct stab at what I was trying to say:
God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the possibility for humanity to sin is clearly his responsibility. If he hadn't created the tree, we would have continued on in innocence and there would be no need for Hell. To me, this is clearly God sabotaging his creation, at best a negligent act and at worst a cruel and dirty trick.
The common defense for God having created the tree is to say that he allows us to have free will. Why is free will a higher value than innate goodness? The only benefit of free will that I see is that we can choose to do good in situations where it would be easier to do evil. If God only loves good and not evil and wants the same of us, how does the ability to choose evil benefit him or us?
Secondly, if free will is such an important virtue (more important than goodness, apparently), why are we not granted the free will to choose to not be able to sin? If Adam's and Eve's actions determined that everyone who came after them was born a sinful person by default, then our evil behavior is merely due to pedigree and not our own choice. Actual free will would mean that we could choose to not be innately evil from birth and thus, we would only do good.
Again, it seems like God has done his darnedest to make it certain that at least some of us will screw up so severely in life that we are punished for eternity. Where is the benevolence in this confusing and clearly imperfect plan?
I guess this was sort of succinct. But not really.
-------------------------------
Hey John --
So when you asked me the other day if I was going to respond to this email, I was a bit shocked because I didn't really know you sent it in hopes of a response, but rather to clarify a point.
If God only loves good and not evil and wants the same of us, how does the ability to choose evil benefit him or us?
Why is free will a higher value than innate goodness?
Again, it seems like God has done his darnedest to make it certain that at least some of us will screw up so severely in life that we are punished for eternity. Where is the benevolence in this confusing and clearly imperfect plan?
I pasted some of the questions you posted in your email because I wanted to clarify something - if in our conversation I came across as saying free will is the end all be all of evil, then let me say that was not the point i was trying to make, nor would i suggest that free will is a higher value than "innate goodness" as you put it. And that phrase is interesting to me - innate goodness. If we have innate goodness, then where does that goodness come from and how do we know its goodness? I believe in a moral law-giver - God - and because he created us in His image we have that ability to know right and wrong and good and bad. Because we were created by a God who is good, we are able to have that "innate goodness". just a random thought.
it seems i can sum up the issue you have w/ God, in this capacity- if God is so good, then why is there evil? am i right? and this evil existing in man and in the world. Evil doesn't benefit anybody - that's probably why God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit from that tree, because He was trying to protect them from the suffering that would ensue if they did. but you and i both know they disobeyed God's command and ate of the fruit. disobedience to God is sin (when we fail to do something we should do or when we do something we shouldn't) - and so sin entered the world, hence the reason for evil in the world. you're probably asking yourself - but why is that a huge deal - why is that a problem - especially when God made the tree and they were too dumb to know they shouldn't have done that! you did state during our convo that adam and eve didn't know right from wrong until they ate from the tree - however, with your own words of "innate goodness", i would say that they would both have an innate sense of knowing right and wrong. (b/c i'm going to guess that someone who is "good" is someone who does right - in your opinion - correct?) so back to the point - God isn't going to force us to do anything - because that isn't love. I can't tell you why this happened or would happen, other than to say that God doesn't force himself upon us, but wants us to obey him out of our love for him. And He had to put Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden b/c that was the consequence (one of many, i should say) of disobeying God - being separated from Him! And I know that you have an issue w/ everyone suffering from sin, from that ONE time in the garden. But consider how this tells of the consequences of our actions. Your actions don't effect just you. My actions don't effect just me!
but we are also missing one huge piece of the puzzle and that is Christ. God desires to bring glory to himself and he brought glory to himself, by redeeming a broken world to himself through the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. Christ is the main difference between Christianity and all other religions. Why did Christ have to be born? Why did he have to die? Why did he need to be raised from the dead? If this had been a perfect world, then Christ would not have been needed. But the fact is that sin entered the world - through one man - Adam. And sin was defeated by one man - Jesus Christ - who was God incarnate. So if we had a world, in which you, John, desire, a world where everyone made all the right decisions and did all the right things etc. etc. then there would be no need for Christ! It is true that some will suffer for all eternity, however it doesn't have to be this way. The Bible states that we can not be good enough to attain salvation. It also states that while we were created to do good works, it isn't what gets us into heaven. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You can't go to church enough, and even Jesus got upset with religious leaders many times! In Romans 3:23, it tells us that "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Again, God desires to bring glory to himself, we can bring him glory by living for him and being obedient to his commands. Since we were separated from God at the time of the incident at the garden of Eden, there needed to be redemption - and God sought to redeem us through the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. Born of a virgin, he (Christ) knew no sin - was tempted in all ways we are tempted today, yet he remained pure - sinless - the perfect sacrifice - as in the days of old, to be forgiven of sins, people would need to bring forth a goat or lamb or bull, whatever they could afford, that was without defect and the animal would be killed and the blood of the animal used to cleanse the people of their sins. Christ became the Lamb of God. he was pierced for our transgressions (Isaiah 53:5a) His blood makes us white as snow - cleanses us from all unrighteousness. His resurrection declared victory over death, which is our penalty if we are still in our sin - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 6:23 - and it is what we deserve no doubt, but 'God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life". (John 3:16)
John, I know you are skeptical of a supernatural, all-powerful being - you may or may not believe there is a God - but I ask you, based on your questions - if God is so tricky and screwed up, why would He care enough to send his only Son to be our atonement if all he wanted to do was screw us up from the beginning of time? Why not just let us be and enjoy the freak show? From the beginning, it was God's intention to redeem his wayward creation. He loved us too much to force himself on us and loved us so much that He sought to redeem us to himself, through His son Jesus. What kind of God does that?
The true question isn't about free will - its not about wanting to do good or evil. the question is - who is Christ? John, we have a need for a Savior because there is no way we can get to God by what we do in this life. We can't get to heaven on the honor system or the point system. It isn't our good deeds versus our bad deeds. Christ says in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father, except through me." It is no longer about Adam and Eve, or free will, but there is a choice to be made. We can either choose to follow Christ or follow our own way. We can't blame God for our eternity, when He has shown us through his Word how we have fallen from his way and how we can be redeemed and enjoy eternity w/ Him.
so you know how i responded and what my thoughts were i but i am curious as to how you might repond? maybe you had a scenario where something like this came up? how did it go and do you wish you had done anything different? remember, as followers and believers in Christ (Christians) we are not able to save anyone - that isn't our business. we were given the command to speak Truth to the nations. it isn't my job to save my co-worker - but it is my job to speak truth to him.
I was discussing the Genesis story with someone online and recalled a few ideas from our conversation about how sin entered the world.
I'm not sure I expressed my point very well then, so here's a better and more succinct stab at what I was trying to say:
God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the possibility for humanity to sin is clearly his responsibility. If he hadn't created the tree, we would have continued on in innocence and there would be no need for Hell. To me, this is clearly God sabotaging his creation, at best a negligent act and at worst a cruel and dirty trick.
The common defense for God having created the tree is to say that he allows us to have free will. Why is free will a higher value than innate goodness? The only benefit of free will that I see is that we can choose to do good in situations where it would be easier to do evil. If God only loves good and not evil and wants the same of us, how does the ability to choose evil benefit him or us?
Secondly, if free will is such an important virtue (more important than goodness, apparently), why are we not granted the free will to choose to not be able to sin? If Adam's and Eve's actions determined that everyone who came after them was born a sinful person by default, then our evil behavior is merely due to pedigree and not our own choice. Actual free will would mean that we could choose to not be innately evil from birth and thus, we would only do good.
Again, it seems like God has done his darnedest to make it certain that at least some of us will screw up so severely in life that we are punished for eternity. Where is the benevolence in this confusing and clearly imperfect plan?
I guess this was sort of succinct. But not really.
-------------------------------
Hey John --
So when you asked me the other day if I was going to respond to this email, I was a bit shocked because I didn't really know you sent it in hopes of a response, but rather to clarify a point.
If God only loves good and not evil and wants the same of us, how does the ability to choose evil benefit him or us?
Why is free will a higher value than innate goodness?
Again, it seems like God has done his darnedest to make it certain that at least some of us will screw up so severely in life that we are punished for eternity. Where is the benevolence in this confusing and clearly imperfect plan?
I pasted some of the questions you posted in your email because I wanted to clarify something - if in our conversation I came across as saying free will is the end all be all of evil, then let me say that was not the point i was trying to make, nor would i suggest that free will is a higher value than "innate goodness" as you put it. And that phrase is interesting to me - innate goodness. If we have innate goodness, then where does that goodness come from and how do we know its goodness? I believe in a moral law-giver - God - and because he created us in His image we have that ability to know right and wrong and good and bad. Because we were created by a God who is good, we are able to have that "innate goodness". just a random thought.
it seems i can sum up the issue you have w/ God, in this capacity- if God is so good, then why is there evil? am i right? and this evil existing in man and in the world. Evil doesn't benefit anybody - that's probably why God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit from that tree, because He was trying to protect them from the suffering that would ensue if they did. but you and i both know they disobeyed God's command and ate of the fruit. disobedience to God is sin (when we fail to do something we should do or when we do something we shouldn't) - and so sin entered the world, hence the reason for evil in the world. you're probably asking yourself - but why is that a huge deal - why is that a problem - especially when God made the tree and they were too dumb to know they shouldn't have done that! you did state during our convo that adam and eve didn't know right from wrong until they ate from the tree - however, with your own words of "innate goodness", i would say that they would both have an innate sense of knowing right and wrong. (b/c i'm going to guess that someone who is "good" is someone who does right - in your opinion - correct?) so back to the point - God isn't going to force us to do anything - because that isn't love. I can't tell you why this happened or would happen, other than to say that God doesn't force himself upon us, but wants us to obey him out of our love for him. And He had to put Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden b/c that was the consequence (one of many, i should say) of disobeying God - being separated from Him! And I know that you have an issue w/ everyone suffering from sin, from that ONE time in the garden. But consider how this tells of the consequences of our actions. Your actions don't effect just you. My actions don't effect just me!
but we are also missing one huge piece of the puzzle and that is Christ. God desires to bring glory to himself and he brought glory to himself, by redeeming a broken world to himself through the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. Christ is the main difference between Christianity and all other religions. Why did Christ have to be born? Why did he have to die? Why did he need to be raised from the dead? If this had been a perfect world, then Christ would not have been needed. But the fact is that sin entered the world - through one man - Adam. And sin was defeated by one man - Jesus Christ - who was God incarnate. So if we had a world, in which you, John, desire, a world where everyone made all the right decisions and did all the right things etc. etc. then there would be no need for Christ! It is true that some will suffer for all eternity, however it doesn't have to be this way. The Bible states that we can not be good enough to attain salvation. It also states that while we were created to do good works, it isn't what gets us into heaven. (Ephesians 2:8-10) You can't go to church enough, and even Jesus got upset with religious leaders many times! In Romans 3:23, it tells us that "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Again, God desires to bring glory to himself, we can bring him glory by living for him and being obedient to his commands. Since we were separated from God at the time of the incident at the garden of Eden, there needed to be redemption - and God sought to redeem us through the birth, death and resurrection of Christ. Born of a virgin, he (Christ) knew no sin - was tempted in all ways we are tempted today, yet he remained pure - sinless - the perfect sacrifice - as in the days of old, to be forgiven of sins, people would need to bring forth a goat or lamb or bull, whatever they could afford, that was without defect and the animal would be killed and the blood of the animal used to cleanse the people of their sins. Christ became the Lamb of God. he was pierced for our transgressions (Isaiah 53:5a) His blood makes us white as snow - cleanses us from all unrighteousness. His resurrection declared victory over death, which is our penalty if we are still in our sin - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 6:23 - and it is what we deserve no doubt, but 'God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life". (John 3:16)
John, I know you are skeptical of a supernatural, all-powerful being - you may or may not believe there is a God - but I ask you, based on your questions - if God is so tricky and screwed up, why would He care enough to send his only Son to be our atonement if all he wanted to do was screw us up from the beginning of time? Why not just let us be and enjoy the freak show? From the beginning, it was God's intention to redeem his wayward creation. He loved us too much to force himself on us and loved us so much that He sought to redeem us to himself, through His son Jesus. What kind of God does that?
The true question isn't about free will - its not about wanting to do good or evil. the question is - who is Christ? John, we have a need for a Savior because there is no way we can get to God by what we do in this life. We can't get to heaven on the honor system or the point system. It isn't our good deeds versus our bad deeds. Christ says in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father, except through me." It is no longer about Adam and Eve, or free will, but there is a choice to be made. We can either choose to follow Christ or follow our own way. We can't blame God for our eternity, when He has shown us through his Word how we have fallen from his way and how we can be redeemed and enjoy eternity w/ Him.
so you know how i responded and what my thoughts were i but i am curious as to how you might repond? maybe you had a scenario where something like this came up? how did it go and do you wish you had done anything different? remember, as followers and believers in Christ (Christians) we are not able to save anyone - that isn't our business. we were given the command to speak Truth to the nations. it isn't my job to save my co-worker - but it is my job to speak truth to him.
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